About Doping

Hello,

I wondered why you removed the results of a rider when he tested positive In-Competition (on a race) and not in an Out-of-Competition Control.

I'll explain :
1) In-Competition (on a race)
For example Di Luca : http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider_palm.asp?riderid=26&year=2009&all=1&current=0
You've removed his results after his first positive test on Giro d'Italia. Besides it's a little bit funny to see his results on Giro just the days before his postive test....as if there was a diffrence (by the way it's another thing).

2) Out-of-Competition
For example Patxi Vila : http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider_palm.asp?riderid=281&year=2008&all=1&current=0
He tested positive in an Out-of-Competion Control on March 3, 2008. And we always see all his results after this date (Tirreno, Pais Vasco...)
***

So my suggestion is not to remove Patxi Vila’s results after that day. But to keep all the results as they are. So don't write DSQ for that.
I think it's good enough to add a comment under the profile and the results of the rider ("Rider comment"). With that, we can link (or judge) by ourselves between the rider comment and the results after the positive test.

That way, there will be no difference between Di Luca and Vila as in my example.

In the other way, I can also quote the case of Alessandro Petacchi. It's very weird for the years 2007 and 2008.

What's your opinion?

No opinion?

http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider_palm.asp?riderid=5&year=2010&all=1&current=0

What's the meaning to delete all the results and all the races where was Alejandro Valverde in 2010???

chrismartinol wrote:

http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider_palm.asp?riderid=5&year=2010&all=1&current=0

What's the meaning to delete all the results and all the races where was Alejandro Valverde in 2010???

I ask myself the same.

Riccoen wrote:

chrismartinol wrote:

http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider_palm.asp?riderid=5&year=2010&all=1&current=0

What's the meaning to delete all the results and all the races where was Alejandro Valverde in 2010???

I ask myself the same.

Based on the official UCI decision to cancel all results for Alejandro Valverde as of 1/1/2010 we have adapted the CQ results in 2010. Please note that for specific races we are still in progress to add the comments clarifying the DQ state of Alejandro Valverde.

Hope this clarifies.

I was saying that because there was nothing for the year 2010 when i have wrote, even not the races...now, it has changed and we see the races with DSQ...
So, it's ok, yes.

By the way, it doesn't respond to what i mentioned in my first post, 2 months ago already....between positive test In-Competition (on a race) and Out-of-Competition....

We adapt the results of a race in case of a suspension based on the UCI decision. I agree that for Petacchi this gives weird results but that's the way the UCI decided.

Due to the Valverde case we are trying to document our approach more clearly, as the UCI's policy is not always that crystal clear. But in general, we always try to stick to the official decisions.

In principal our approach should not differentiate between in-competion and out-of-competion controls. But if the UCI decides differently, then we will follow.

chrismartinol wrote:

Hello,

I wondered why you removed the results of a rider when he tested positive In-Competition (on a race) and not in an Out-of-Competition Control.

I'll explain :
1) In-Competition (on a race)
For example Di Luca : http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider_palm.asp?riderid=26&year=2009&all=1&current=0
You've removed his results after his first positive test on Giro d'Italia. Besides it's a little bit funny to see his results on Giro just the days before his postive test....as if there was a diffrence (by the way it's another thing).

2) Out-of-Competition
For example Patxi Vila : http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider_palm.asp?riderid=281&year=2008&all=1&current=0
He tested positive in an Out-of-Competion Control on March 3, 2008. And we always see all his results after this date (Tirreno, Pais Vasco...)
***

So my suggestion is not to remove Patxi Vila’s results after that day. But to keep all the results as they are. So don't write DSQ for that.
I think it's good enough to add a comment under the profile and the results of the rider ("Rider comment"). With that, we can link (or judge) by ourselves between the rider comment and the results after the positive test.

That way, there will be no difference between Di Luca and Vila as in my example.

In the other way, I can also quote the case of Alessandro Petacchi. It's very weird for the years 2007 and 2008.

What's your opinion?

Main opinion is of double shame: I just noticed this remark today, 2 months after you've posted it.
And about not removing the Vila results: after Patxi Vila has been suspended, it took a very long time until some federation (RFEC, UCI, CAS) took an official decision. When this finally happened in May 2009, we have adapted his Rider Comment, but postponed the removal of his results between positive test and latest rece before his provisional suspension. Main reason was lack of time and the fact that Patxi's CQ-value and the actual CQ-ranking did not change by the DQ's, because it was >1 yr after his latest results.

Afterwards we simply forgot to delete his results of march-may 2008. I understand that this was quite confusing.
We'll try to make the changes a.s.a.p.


More general, about your remarks concerning In- and Out-of-competition positive tests:
According to the UCI rules, there is no difference. A rider is stripped of all his results AFTER a positive test. So CQ deleted Di Luca's results since his first positive test on 20 May. The stages before his positive test are not deleted: he was also tested then, but not positive.
Nevertheless, the UCI sometimes makes its own decisions, and 2 weeks ago we noticed a new list in which Di Luca was stripped of ALL his Giro 2009 results. As we are following UCI decisions, Di Luca will now also loose his results in the first half of the Giro. (but as you may have noticed, we haven't found time yet to change it in the database)

My comment is not to delete all the results ... but just the opposite ...

If you follow the decisions of the UCI, you will never emerge from that…
You'll always have to change at some time or another and so there will always be differences between riders caught for doping.
Therefore, I propose to change nothing and leave the results as they are.

This website is not owned by the UCI. You have your ranking which is excellent.
The UCI has chosen for 5 years to have stupid rankings. Don’t worry about them and their strange decisions. That's my advice.

chrismartinol wrote:

My comment is not to delete all the results ... but just the opposite ...

If you follow the decisions of the UCI, you will never emerge from that…
You'll always have to change at some time or another and so there will always be differences between riders caught for doping.
Therefore, I propose to change nothing and leave the results as they are.

This website is not owned by the UCI. You have your ranking which is excellent.
The UCI has chosen for 5 years to have stupid rankings. Don’t worry about them and their strange decisions. That's my advice.

So your advice is not to do anything with results riders had doring and after they were doped???

Well, that's an original view...

A rider which is doped don't ride during a certain time, no?

I say that because there are many different treatments between the doping cases. For someones, you touch no results, for other, just some results, for others many results etc...whereas it's the same situation : the rider is doped.
I don't even speak the procedure time etc...

I can also give many examples.
Lasy year, you (or the UCI) don't touch to the results of Dekker, Caucchioli, Lobato etc...
But what's the difference with Di Luca or Astarloza for example?

And to conclude that it's impossible to moralize results and statistics :
> recently, Landis admitts that he doped all his career. And you will leave its results except Tour de France 2006?

chrismartinol wrote:

Last year, you (or the UCI) don't touch to the results of Dekker, Caucchioli, Lobato etc...
But what's the difference with Di Luca or Astarloza for example?

OK, now I understand why you're mistaken.

There is a difference between riders who have been Provisionally Suspended, after their positive test has been published, and riders who are officially Suspended after a verdict from the UCI- of national cycling court.

We (and the UCI) only delete results AFTER the official verdict, so in the period between the publication of a doping test failure and the official publication of the ban, a rider still keeps his results because nothing is official yet.

As soon as a ban is outspoken, we delete the results between the positive test and the publication of the positive test, or a different set of races according to the UCI verdict.

Nothing wrong with that, I guess?

LeonCQ wrote:

Nevertheless, the UCI sometimes makes its own decisions, and 2 weeks ago we noticed a new list in which Di Luca was stripped of ALL his Giro 2009 results. As we are following UCI decisions, Di Luca will now also loose his results in the first half of the Giro. (but as you may have noticed, we haven't found time yet to change it in the database)

Since yesterday evening also Di Luca stage results (and leader jerseys) have been removed/replaced by a DQ. New stage victories for Garzelli & Pellizotti, as well as some leader jerseys for Lofkvist (and 1 for Menchov).

LeonCQ wrote:

chrismartinol wrote:

Last year, you (or the UCI) don't touch to the results of Dekker, Caucchioli, Lobato etc...
But what's the difference with Di Luca or Astarloza for example?

OK, now I understand why you're mistaken.

There is a difference between riders who have been Provisionally Suspended, after their positive test has been published, and riders who are officially Suspended after a verdict from the UCI- of national cycling court.

We (and the UCI) only delete results AFTER the official verdict, so in the period between the publication of a doping test failure and the official publication of the ban, a rider still keeps his results because nothing is official yet.

As soon as a ban is outspoken, we delete the results between the positive test and the publication of the positive test, or a different set of races according to the UCI verdict.

Nothing wrong with that, I guess?

Ok i see.
But the UCI mentions every time if there are results to delete?

Only since this year, it seems yes : http://www.uci.ch/Modules/BUILTIN/getObject.asp?MenuId=MTU3MzA&ObjTypeCode=FILE&type=FILE&id=NjA4MDA&LangId=2

Before there wasn't that : http://www.uci.ch/templates/UCI/UCI2/layout.asp?MenuId=MTU3MzA&LangId=2
So, how did you do before?

chrismartinol wrote:

So, how did you do before?

Like I said: As soon as a ban is outspoken, we deleted the results between the positive test and the publication of the positive test, like it is according to the official UCI rules. The UCI usually mentioned the exact verdict in a press release.

Ok, now i understand how you proceed.

Thanks for your answers

How will you do now with Contador and Ullrich cases....? I'm curious...
I warned you it was an endless path to follow all the UCI's decisions and to remake the race rankings...

chrismartinol wrote:

How will you do now with Contador and Ullrich cases....? I'm curious...
I warned you it was an endless path to follow all the UCI's decisions and to remake the race rankings...

This awareness is also sinking into our minds

sammieCQ wrote:

chrismartinol wrote:

How will you do now with Contador and Ullrich cases....? I'm curious...
I warned you it was an endless path to follow all the UCI's decisions and to remake the race rankings...

This awareness is also sinking into our minds

But finally, you have decided to cancel all the results of Contador....but not for Ullrich...
It's really ridiculous. Okay, we will remind in our minds that Schleck has won the Tour de France and Scarponi the Giro. Pity.

And now what will you do with Armstrong case?

Will you delete Sayar, and the Neri Sottoli's from last year ?

?? Is it so important to "clean" the rankings? It's just a lost of time... The most important is to have the new rankings day by day, that's all...

It's not only clean the ranking, but have the right palmares. Sayar officially didn't win the Tour of Turkey, but it's Berhane now. So personally yes, I think it's important to "clean" it. And CQ started to do this.

And moreover, what make the success of the site isn't only the ranking, but to the database. Current results, transfers, archives, ...

Yeah i know for the transfers...results and rankings are nearly the same thing.
Anyway, just read good what i wrote in my previous messages...it's not so obvious like you think...
Or just read the last message before your post about Armstrong case...is he still the winner of Tour de France for you???

I believe the CQ team should review the approach in updating results based on riders being stripped of results due to UCI decisions. Probably we should just make notes in the results, and putting an asterisk to revised results, rather than updating the data (and shift up all the other riders in the race) ...

E.g. does anyone have a clear view on who won the Vuelta in 2005 ? Heras ? Menchov ? Sastre ?